Wolf attack!!!!!!

[Ultimatum479]

I disagree; if you're crouching in front of them, they'll kick first and ask questions later.

If you're crouching, yes, they tend to do that move. But why the hell would you be crouching in front of them? Then you're just ASKING to get kicked in the face for a one-hit kill.

Again, I disagree: I've managed to reverse all wolf attacks except the front kick, and the rapid leg sweep...[The punch is] also [, in addition to being duckable,] blockable, which is more effective, because you can follow up with counter punches and kicks.

First, I've never managed to reverse the punch. It's duckable/blockable, as you said, but not reversable, so far as I know. Second, the wolf leg sweep is just as easily reversable as the rabbit version. Also, it's best to dodge that punch by ducking because you can then follow up with a sweep kick before they've even recovered from their attack...which you then follow up with a crouch-attack if you've got a weapon (SLAIN!), or a simple standing punt kick if you don't, and when they get up, you leg-cannon the hell outta 'em.

I always feel confident fighting wolves, until they kill me.

If you get killed, even by wolves, in a one-on-one fight, maybe you should try the tactics I suggested and then see if you still do. If they don't work for you, tell me what went wrong so I can try to revise the suggestions, but this should be effective for people who have trouble against wolves. (Assuming you can't one-hit stealth-kill 'em, which is always preferable.)

Me, I tend to use corpses and walls to kill wolves. It just makes things a lot easier. But if you're forced to fight a wolf in the open, it really shouldn't be a challenge if you do this. Two at once, even, shouldn't be too bad. Three at once is where things start to get hairy, though.

[Usagi]

...if you're crouching in front of them, they'll kick first and ask questions later.

If you're crouching, yes, they tend to do that move. But why the hell would you be crouching in front of them? Then you're just ASKING to get kicked in the face for a one-hit kill.

If you're fighting several wolves, and roll out of a throw, and roll into another wolf, you'll be crouching, and he'll be kicking you to Sheol. And he won't wait to punch you. I can think of several similar situations.

I've managed to reverse all wolf attacks except the front kick, and the rapid leg sweep...[The punch is] also [, in addition to being duckable,] blockable, which is more effective, because you can follow up with counter punches and kicks.

First, I've never managed to reverse the punch.

This is the problem with saying things like:

Wolves, however, will ONLY do that....

Many things once thought impossible have been proven otherwise: some by me, some by other experienced players on this forum. Until you've played an infinite number of games, it's best to stick to "It seems impossible to..."

It's duckable/blockable, as you said, but not reversable, so far as I know.

Well, now you're following my advice, so I'll follow it too. I know I've thrown wolves; it may have been a reversal of a double or "U" punch, but I seem to remember reversing his "standard punch", which is really more of a slash. I'll pay more attention and try to get a GIF.

Second, the wolf leg sweep is just as easily reversable as the rabbit version

I believe there is a second, faster sweep I've only seen the wolves use. It's been too fast to block, even in slo-mo: again, I'll watch more carefully.

Also, it's best to dodge that punch by ducking because you can then follow up with a sweep kick before they've even recovered from their attack

I prefer blocking: I follow that up by running around the wolf and hitting him with the most powerful strike you have - the spinning hook kick. Unless that's what you call a "sweep kick."

...which you then follow up with a crouch-attack if you've got a weapon (SLAIN!),

I rarely use what AlphaRalpha called "puny weapons;" at least not against wolves.

or a simple standing punt kick if you don't, and when they get up, you leg-cannon the hell outta 'em.

I love punting wolves, especially down hills: I've gotten three in a row a few lucky times. But I'd rather wait for them to get up and stand toe-to-toe with them and knock them down again, especially if I'm trying to rack up "mega-combos"

I always feel confident fighting wolves, until they kill me.

If you get killed, even by wolves...

Does this mean you never get killed?

...in a one-on-one fight, maybe you should try the tactics I suggested and then see if you still do.

Don't teach your Gramma to suck eggs; I've killed more wolves than you've had hot meals.

[invertin]

Don't teach your Gramma to suck eggs; I've killed more wolves than you've had hot meals.

Owned.

[Ultimatum479]

Wouldn't surprise me. I don't like hot food.

If you "roll out of a throw", that means you got reversed. You should never be reversed by a wolf. It's easy to time your attacks against them to be unreversable -- again, they have no tactics, unlike the rabbits.

Still haven't managed to reverse the standard punch. I've tried several dozen times now.

I tried your super-slow-motion settings and it makes it a helluva lot harder to reverse things than just playing on Insane. Maybe that's why you can't reverse the leg sweep? The only wolf attacks I haven't managed to reverse are the right-handed claw swipe (standard punch) and front kick.

No, by "sweep", I mean the crouching kick. Your method gives you a spin kick, while mine gives me a leg cannon. I prefer mine. ^_^

Of course I almost never get killed. We were talking about 1v1s. 2v1s versus wolves are a different story; dying in those happens, unfortunately, with more frequency than I'd like. And 3v1s, like what'll happen if you charge into the center of the Challenge 14 map for fun instead of stealth-killing the first two wolves, pretty much pwn you if you're not careful and you don't do a lot of (extremely cheap) flipping.

[invertin]

I killed all 3 wolves of level 14 with only one flip. It wasn't that hard. I just flipped over them all when they were in a line the rabbit kicked them into a tree. Oh, that also means I killed 3 wolves with a single attack.

w00t.

[Silb]

In my experience, wolves only have five attacks:

one punch, reversible, but you do not deal damage when you reverse it, and there's no counter-reversal (or need for one). I have never thrown a wolf that I can remember.

one spinning kick (reversible).

one low kick, which they only perform if you are crouching or rolling withing range at the time they initiate the attack. It cannot be reversed but does minimal damage if you stand up.

one sweep, reversible just like a rabbit's.

one tackle, which they use if and only if you are moving within tackling distance while they are running on all fours, and which cannot hit you if you duck.

I don't think there are two different punches or two different sweeps (there are, however, two different thresholds for a wolf's sweep reversal, like there are for a knife attack reversal or a 'crashing' reversal).

Since wolves can pretty much kill you in one hit, like Usagi, I'd say it's difficult to never die in direct hand-to-hand combat, even one on one, and even with strategies more elaborate than Ultimatum479's.

(On a related topic, I also do not think anyone short of a dedicated videogame genius can complete Halo in Legendary difficulty using only melee attacks, dying only once, after having played just a couple online matches )

[Zantalos]

...if you're crouching in front of them, they'll kick first and ask questions later.

If you're crouching, yes, they tend to do that move. But why the hell would you be crouching in front of them? Then you're just ASKING to get kicked in the face for a one-hit kill.

If you're fighting several wolves, and roll out of a throw, and roll into another wolf, you'll be crouching, and he'll be kicking you to Sheol. And he won't wait to punch you. I can think of several similar situations.

I've managed to reverse all wolf attacks except the front kick, and the rapid leg sweep...[The punch is] also [, in addition to being duckable,] blockable, which is more effective, because you can follow up with counter punches and kicks.

First, I've never managed to reverse the punch.

This is the problem with saying things like:

Wolves, however, will ONLY do that....

Many things once thought impossible have been proven otherwise: some by me, some by other experienced players on this forum. Until you've played an infinite number of games, it's best to stick to "It seems impossible to..."

It's duckable/blockable, as you said, but not reversable, so far as I know.

Well, now you're following my advice, so I'll follow it too. I know I've thrown wolves; it may have been a reversal of a double or "U" punch, but I seem to remember reversing his "standard punch", which is really more of a slash. I'll pay more attention and try to get a GIF.

Second, the wolf leg sweep is just as easily reversable as the rabbit version

I believe there is a second, faster sweep I've only seen the wolves use. It's been too fast to block, even in slo-mo: again, I'll watch more carefully.

Also, it's best to dodge that punch by ducking because you can then follow up with a sweep kick before they've even recovered from their attack

I prefer blocking: I follow that up by running around the wolf and hitting him with the most powerful strike you have - the spinning hook kick. Unless that's what you call a "sweep kick."

...which you then follow up with a crouch-attack if you've got a weapon (SLAIN!),

I rarely use what AlphaRalpha called "puny weapons;" at least not against wolves.

or a simple standing punt kick if you don't, and when they get up, you leg-cannon the hell outta 'em.

I love punting wolves, especially down hills: I've gotten three in a row a few lucky times. But I'd rather wait for them to get up and stand toe-to-toe with them and knock them down again, especially if I'm trying to rack up "mega-combos"

I always feel confident fighting wolves, until they kill me.

If you get killed, even by wolves...

Does this mean you never get killed?

...in a one-on-one fight, maybe you should try the tactics I suggested and then see if you still do.

Don't teach your Gramma to suck eggs; I've killed more wolves than you've had hot meals.

Stop doing this, it's so dumb. When I went back to actually read what he said, It makes sense, he has a good understanding of wolves. This quote, reply quote, quote, quote, quote reply, ignore all important evidence.. just stop.

You can't reverse the standard punch, you can dodge it if you're crouching, or you can block it, you can't reverse it.

He has a good point with wolves and tactics. I think it is much easier to block and reverse wolf attacks, like the sweep kick, because you don't have to wait for the attack to happen, you already know to hit shift before the wolf even get in range of you. With a rabbit, it might side-step around or just pause for half a second, or just straight up hit you. I think it's alot harder to reverse a rabbit's attack rather than a wolves. This is a very important point you should at least recongnize rather than just saying, I don't use puny weapons or, you mean you don't get killed by wolves, this is not about him never getting killed, he never said that, you said, [I always feel confident fighting wolves, until they kill me.], because he only mentioned that at this point, you could attack if you are feeling confident. Why, why of all that, you only pick out these random comments to say something stupid about them?

And the low kick thing Silb pointed out is pretty cool. It's in the wiki, but by simply standing up during a low kick you can keep yourself from going ragdoll flying (you end up taking like 2 steps back), taking very minimal damage.

[Ultimatum479]

That's because otherwise it hits you in the face, which pretty much WTFPWNS you. v_V Pain.

Thanks, Silb, for explaining what Usagi called the "unreversable" kick. I never stay crouching, or roll, in front of a wolf like that, so I didn't get what he was saying. It's usually a very bad idea to be low in front of a wolf because then you get one-hit killed. I'm only briefly like that after ducking their punches -- which explains why they always do that kick after their punch, now -- and then I usually sweep them right away so they don't get to do it.

On the note of tackles, I don't think wolves ever tackle you if you're facing directly towards 'em. Simply turning to face them has worked 100% of the time for me, anyway, even if I'm _moving_ towards them, as you said was necessary.

Zantalos, I would handspring, jump, or roll out of the way to negate the kick's damage entirely, rather than merely standing up to minimize the damage. It may not be much damage, but it's still permanent damage, as pretty much all non-reversal (and even some reversal) wolf attacks are because their claws count as slashing weapons.

Silb's note of a wolf's ability to one-hit kill you is important. Their one-hit kill attacks are frightening but thankfully few. The point is to make certain you never get into a situation where they can use one. The first is that annoying front kick, which becomes a one-hit kill if you're crouching. If they do a punch and you duck it, they follow up with that kick to try to kill you -- and now, thanks to Silb's post, I understand it's because they only do that kick when you're crouching anyway. So make certain to sweep them the moment you've ducked their punch and you won't get pwnt by the kick. Their second most common one-hit kill is their sweep-attack reversal -- sometimes you seem to survive it through sheer dumb luck, but quite often it just instantly owns you. Only use sweep attacks when you're ducking their high attacks so they can't reverse you at the time, or when you're behind them (enemies always play on Insane in that they can't reverse you unless they're facing you, it appears). Lastly, when you're in the air, their claw swipe has a tendency to one-hit kill, mainly because it usually smashes you into the ground hard enough to kill you even if the attack itself didn't. Not much to say on this note except DON'T enter the air in combat with a wolf unless you're far away and flipping, or feeling particularly brave and attempting a wall kick or somesuch on a dying wolf.

Remember that a wolf's lack of tactics, and hence predictability, is its primary weakness. They're easy to reverse, it's easier to land attacks on them without getting reversed, and if they manage to reverse you, it's easier to "reverse"/escape from their reversals. Just keep that in mind when fighting wolves and 1v1s tend to become a lot easier. It's harder to create set formulas for 2v1s, as they tend to be very terrain-dependent.

[BunnyWithStick]

Re-Rail Award goes to Ultimatum for the utterly fantastic Back-On-Topic-o-Rama!

[Usagi]

I'm not sure what your problem is, Z. I'm having an in-depth discussion of Lugaru fighting tactics; I quoted the relevant portions almost in their entirety, and didn't select special sections just to say "stupid" things about them. I don't know why you call them stupid, either: U479 and I have different opinions, but nothing I said was at all similar to "it's so dumb. Just stop." I certainly never said his points and recommendations weren't good.

Sorry if you don't like the way I communicate; I do, so all I can suggest is, don't read 'em if you don't enjoy 'em.

Silb, I have had wolves hit me with a "U" or double punch, so that's another attack. And I have reversed attacks from wolves; if it wasn't the slash, it must have been the "U."

I've also been tackled when crouching, crouch walking, or facing the wolf. The only way I've ever moved or positioned myself when fighting wolves that didn't allow a tackle was a back-dodge: you can do that forever, although if you dodge past a wolf as he sweeps or slashes he may still hit you.

I also feel very certain that there is a faster version of the sweep that wolves use on me, usually when they run up quickly. I don't even see them initiate it; I'm just swept. I don't have a problem reversing leg sweeps otherwise. Maybe I just see a difference where there is none: I'm pretty sure they haven't developed a new attack just for me.

And, U479, yah, SSM actually does make it harder to do stuff, 'cuz it really screws up your timing. But I like it because it allows me to see the actual individual motions as an attack or defense unfolds; it lets me analyze it better to see if I can develop a counter or learn how to time the initiation of a response.

A point I need to make here is that I'm referring to fighting three wolves (the three in Heading North is where I like to practice), or the Alpha.

I usually try to Spinecrush one by jumping and landing behind him, they handle the remaining two in various ways. If I miss the first kill, I use flips and cannons to reduce the odds. When I get down to one, I usually go toe-to-toe.

I prefer not to use weapons on wolves, although they're fun, unless I'm going for speed on a level. AlphaRalpha is absurdly easy to kill with a sword: just wait for him, slash him five times, head to the Rocky Hall. I don't have a problem with single wolves, although that doesn't mean I don't ever get killed.

I like to try different things, make up new situations, and see what happens. This often means that I find myself in situations where my attack gets reversed and I have to roll out of it, or try to roll out of danger. Like ol' Tom Edison and his light bulb, I don't consider getting killed a failure: I just know hundreds more attacks and defenses that don't work.

And I still prefer to block the slash and run around the wolf for a spin kick: it keeps me closer than cannons, and allows me to stand over the wolf while he gets up. And if he tries to roll out of danger, then I get to front kick him! Revenge is sweet!

[Ultimatum479]

Thanks, BwS.

Gotta second Usagi on that one: I've seen wolves do double-punches before, Silb. Interestingly, though, I've only ever seen it when I'm fighting two at once. I'm not sure why...

Yes, Usagi, you can be wolf-tackled whenever you're moving, even if you're crouching. If you crouch while staying still, however, they shouldn't tackle you. Also, I've never been tackled while directly facing a wolf unless I was animal-running towards it (it's so fun to try to time a tackle perfectly to get the wolf before he gets you, though it's damn near impossible if you're fighting anything else simultaneously). And I've been tackled while doing a handspring escape maneuver...

Usagi, I think I finally know what you mean when you talk about that "special wolf sweep", now that you said it usually happens when they animal-run towards you but don't tackle you. Sweep kicks doesn't start directly in front of you...they actually start a little bit to the side, which is how they're supposed to be, and that gives you that little bit of a window to reverse them. Since Turner faces his enemies when he attacks, that doesn't affect the player much, but when the wolf stands up after animal-running towards you and not tackling you, he is often facing just a tad bit to the side of you when he does the sweep. Thus, the sweep kick ends up hitting you earlier than it normally should, which makes it harder to reverse -- but still possible. Since you like playing around with slow motion, try watching a wolf when he does a normal sweep kick and when he does a "faster" one. I bet he's not directly facing you just before and after the latter one. Thus, it's not a move that rabbits can't do, it's just that rabbits don't ever animal-run at you, and Turner _always_ faces his enemies directly when he attacks, so you can't do it to them.

When I fight three wolves, I usually do Challenge 14 (and sometimes open up the map editor and spawn another two or three for the hell of it, when I'm feeling somewhat suicidal). Heading North doesn't have enough trees for my taste. Wall kicks are fun stuff.

The Alpha wolf isn't really much different from any other wolf, though. The damage he does to you is significantly increased, but the damage he takes isn't so impressive, which is the more important point.

So you still prefer the block+spin-kick to my duck+sweep+leg-cannon against a wolf slash? Huh. My problems with that are:
A. You say that you want to be near the wolf when he gets up, but that's not difficult to do even with a leg cannon. Always aim leg cannons downhill -- your opponent goes flying farther, taking more damage, and it gives you time to jump after him and catch up to him before he lands.
B. It's riskier. The damage from a reversed spin kick is much, much higher than the damage from a reversed leg cannon, and it's permanent when you're fighting a wolf -- although I'll admit that it's easier to escape from the slower spin-kick reversal than from the quick leg-cannon reversal.

But to each his/her own. If it sets you up better for the combos you'd want to use to follow it up, go ahead. Me, I just love the leg cannon. ^_^

[Usagi]

The reason I love the spin kick while running past them is that if you make sure to wait until you clear their shoulder area, it's a spin kick from the back, and I've never had one of those reversed. It's like a stealth speed kick: BLAMMO!

But I have been tackled while crouching, and not moving. On Level 11 for instance, I've clobbered the light grey bunny on the block you face when you spawn, and watched him run crying to his big brother wolfie.

I crouch at the edge of the block watching them run back towards me, then WHANGO! I'm tackled.

But never once back-dodging.

Time to make some GIFs, methinks. Better call the Screenshot Superhero (if he isn't napping)!

[Ultimatum479]

On that slightly off-topic note, what program do you use to make those GIFs for which you're famous? D'ya know any good ones for Mac?

[Silb]

I may be wrong about the tackle. Wolves can miss you if you crouch, but perhaps that doesn't always work.

For the double-punch, though, I'm pretty positive. The problem is that it's difficult to prove that something isn't possible. However, neglecting the fact that it's not possible, let's prove it.

-=Persuasive essay: wolves can't double-punch=-

-Proof in the style of David: rabbits only use the double-punch as a way to compensate for their weak arms. It would make no sense for wolves to use that move. It would also fail to take advantage of their claws; their light punch strikes downwards for that reason.

-Proof in the style of Usagi: In the following gif, you can clearly see a wolf not using a double-punch.

-Proof by aesthetics: if you replace the animation for the wolf mauling punch by the one for the double-punch, wolves are too tall and go halfway through you.
(I don't know if that's true)

-Do-it-yourself proof: type "wolfieisgod" in debug, activate the map editor to stop all enemies, then try to hit one from as far as possible. You won't get a double-punch, just the regular dumb mauling punch.

-Proof by voiding opponent's argument: Usagi, you might well have been double-punched by one of your infamous resurrected bunny wolves or some other debugger hell spawn, though.

-Proof by authority: as Confucius said, "my Way is that of the Unique that encompasses the Universal". This means that wolves can't double-punch.

-Proof by boring reader to death: in Jerom F. P. Humphrey's seminal compilation on "An ethology of wild wolves in St. Ives, Canada, between 1902 and 1903", no wolf is reported to double-punch.

-Proof by Missile Launcher: not to influence you, but I have my finger on the trigger as we speak.

-Proof by intimidation: if you don't agree with me I'm just going to keep writing.

[Ultimatum479]

"Well, that's enough logical fallacies to convince me." -Red Mage

Uh....I _did_ that. Wolfieisgod. Forward+Punch. I'm definitely double-punching here...*waits for Usagi's answer to his previous post in order to prove it* But meanwhile, in case you don't believe me, I'll take a page out of your book.

Proof in the style of Turner: "Will I have to kill you to make this right?"